Rivkah רִבְקָה ([info]lilrivkah) wrote,
@ 2004-12-25 11:30:00
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Current mood: warm and toasty
Current music:Katie Melua - "My Aphrodisiac Is You"

Big Eyes, Small Mouths. It's a style, baby.
Of all things Westerners pick up on in anime and manga, the first thing they tend to point out is a style that favors overly large eyes and undefined, tiny mouths. There are other facial features that tend to carry over. Lack of definition in the nose. Simple face outline with a lack of heavy shading.

Of course, there are numerous anime/manga artists who don't draw the huge saucer-sized eyes of the shoujo manga we're used to, but even then there is something similar in this style an artist can pick up on; lack of definition. Take a look at most Western comics (particularly superhero comics) and you'll notice that the artists tend to focus on photorealistic detail rather than stylized. Even the facial features of an untraditional manga tend to be simplified.

As much as new Western manga artists hate to admit it, the facial features of characters ARE a major part of what makes up the visual style of manga. Though it certainly isn't all of it (as seen by many poorly executed titles on the shelves).

So, what's the point? Take a look at the following two sets of pictures:

Set One:
http://cyberspace-market.com/xtremexmen/gallery/X-Treme-X-Men-36.jpg
http://cyberspace-market.com/xtremexmen/gallery/X-Treme-X-Men-46.jpg
http://cyberspace-market.com/xtremexmen/gallery/X-Treme-X-Men-5.jpg
http://www.gavroche.org/vhugo/images/lmx.jpg (http://www.gavroche.org/vhugo/xmen.shtml)
http://www.blue-elf.com/comic.jpg (http://www.blue-elf.com/nightfactoidshistory.html)
(reference: http://cyberspace-market.com/xtremexmen/story.html)

Set Two:
http://cupped-expressions.net/rod/die/manga2/manga01_page093.jpg
http://cupped-expressions.net/rod/die/manga2/manga03_page154.jpg
http://cupped-expressions.net/rod/die/manga2/manga03_page088.jpg
(reference: http://cupped-expressions.net/index2.php)


It's pretty easy to tell which we would traditionally call 'manga' and American 'comics,' even if all you look at are the faces. Now tell me . . . which characters would you find easier to relate to?

In Scott McCloud's "Reinventing Comics" he makes a point of the fact that many people find it easier to relate to comics because the facial expressions are so undefined, it's easier to place ourselves in the characters' position. We literally see ourselves in place of the characters. The more simple the expression, the easier it is to see ourselves as the character, but also . . . the more EXPRESSIVE you can make the characters.

The open features of the "big eyes, small mouths" makes it very easy to draw expressions that hit right to home. Traditional western comics tend to be more subtle. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. In a traditional western style, it's a little more easy for artists to create characters with defining features that fans will recognize anywhere. However, it may also be a little more difficult for a lot of people to relate to characters because they can't place themselves in the characters' shoes. With manga, it may be easier to relate to the characters due to the openness and lack of detail in the face (because to a degree, the complaint that 'they all look the same' IS true), but it's also more difficult to trademark the particular look of a character. Perhaps that is why you see so many characters with outrageous hairstyles, costumes, and brilliant colors in manga/anime; it's the one thing the artist really has to mark their character as THEIRS. (is there a synonym for 'character' btw? lol)

To get a real feel for the difference between the two, take a look at the Sunday funnies. Peanuts. Calvin and Hobbs. For Better For Worse. Family Circus. Etc. Strip comics are notorious for simplification, but . . . it makes it easier for people to focus on the JOKES and to place themselves in the life of the character. Perhaps this is why when there's a humorous scene in manga, you'll often see chibi versions of the characters; more focus on the expression of the moment and the joke, rather than the art.

As much as artists hate to admit, facial features play a large part of certain styles of illustration/comics. Are you more concerned with realism or expression? A lot of the Indy comics I've seen seem to focus more on expression. Superhero comics tend to focus on realism (or exaggerated realism). Manga tend to focus on expression and simplification, with detail for emphasis. Strip comics on simplification and the weekly punch line.

This is, of course, all just speculation before I start my work for the day (yes, I work on holidays, too). I draw the 'big eyes, small mouths' because I feel it's a very expressive and effective form of art. I also realize that this isn't all that makes my characters. Composure, body language, dress, style, and movement all go into creating your characters. Some walk tall and proud. Other hunch over, hiding from themselves. The face is a tool to relate emotion, but emotion is also shown in the hands, the twist of the torso, a curled toe, a stray strand of hair. You can't make a pinup and expect them to come to life. There's a history behind those eyes. There's a reason she's dresses the way she does, why she avoids skirts and heels, preferring to don tennis shoes and sweats, why he brushes his hair over one eye, why she runs her fingers through her hair when she's nervous, and why he's suddenly still when he's angry. Characters are as complex as ourselves, and you have to pretend they've been alive just as long, otherwise they will never be real.



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[info]dhiga
2004-12-25 12:07 pm UTC (link)
Heard some interesting things at the UCLA animation lecture series that Stu spoke at last year that seem to fit in with what you are saying.

One guest from Japan suggested that manga characters, and in fact the entire image per cell might actually be thought of as kanji communicating ideas.

That certainly fits in with the notion of a nondescript face that transmits a lot of information. The face communicates story and feeling, the surrounding areas fill in the rest of the information.

In any case I would say that the cues come from Disney, who used large eyes and small features to convey emotions to anthropomorphized images that we might not otherwise think of having emotions.

Very thought provoking...thanks. And a hapy holiday to you! =)

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[info]lilrivkah
2004-12-26 10:02 am UTC (link)
I really wanted to go to that lecture; listening to the professionals in the industry is always fascinating to me, and conventions just don't cover enough of it, catering to the fans rather than other professionals. (and that's completely understandable, btw, as it's the fans that spend the money) There's so much I want to talk about in the market with those running it. Unfortunately, Texas is the LAST place people think of when it comes to manga and where to hold cool lectures about it. ;_;

I can see about the 'kanji communication ideas,' though. Simplified pictures that speak volumes. It's amazing how facial expressions can be broken down to a few simple lines, and people still get them. Take the smiley face, for example. A circle, some dots and a line, and you have a face. Alter the lines a bit and make it sad, angry, silly, or whatnot. Manga involves a lot of symbolism that makes it easy to read and very expressive.

*lol* And I'm glad this made you think. Being who you are, I'd assume you've seen and heard just about everything in the industry. :)

Happy Holidays! I'm looking forward to making those new years resolutions this year.

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[info]missmonstermel
2004-12-25 01:28 pm UTC (link)
That was really cool.

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[info]lilrivkah
2004-12-26 10:02 am UTC (link)
Glad'ja liked it! >_

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[info]catonahotsnroof
2004-12-27 11:23 pm UTC (link)
I liked how you provided your thoughts along with pictures to prove it. Of course, a very good way to prove your case to any non-believers. Though I totally believe what you are saying--I've read both kinds of comics and have seen the difference, the very point of what you said, with the different facial expressions.

I stumbled on your journal, and friended you on the account that you always friend back. One can always use more friends. ^_^

And when your manga comes out, I'll be sure to buy it.

I think I stumbled on you from yuri_daily ...

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[info]ochibibobo
2004-12-29 10:56 am UTC (link)
o wow you're everywhere!

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Brava!
[info]tmarietehmighty
2004-12-31 08:36 am UTC (link)
You don't know me, I'm a friend of Em's...

Anyways, that's not the point.

I enjoy your insight! ::claps:: ^_^ Muy bien! It's refreshing to see people of intelligence rather than others, who'd rather say, "lol, amerikan komix is sux. lollollol..." Good job on being awesome

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Re: Brava!
[info]lilrivkah
2004-12-31 11:10 pm UTC (link)
LOL! Thank you! I'd love for people to overlook what nationality made a comic and instead focus on the beauty of the art, the story, and the quality of the work as a whole. Some of the best series I've read were by American artists while many others are Asian or European. Quality shouldn't be bogged down by the size of the eyes or the language of the dialog. :)

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Not for Big Eye, Small Mouths
[info]smallboxman
2004-12-31 07:51 pm UTC (link)
I will comment for the first time.
I'm sorry when it seems that there is impoliteness since I do not understand the system or manners of Live Journal well yet.
I am introducing the American comic in Japan. So I've got strong impression from your analysis of the difference in the art style of the comics in Japan and U.S.
Then, I have one question for you. I've read so far the many many comics of U.S. and Japan. When reading American comics, I may feel 'difficulty of reading' and I feel it's not for reading different language, I think this feel of weirdness not because the difference in a art style and comes from difference of Panel separation, difference of how to move the person in the panels etc...eh I hope to call that thing simply 'difference of comics narrative'. For example, Chynna Clugston-Major is one of western Manga-Style artist (and one of my favorite!) but I feel her comics, same 'difficulty of reading'. Don't you feel this 'difficulty of reading' thing from Japanese Manga? I am interested in 'differnce of comics narrative' of the West and Japan more than the difference in a art style.
And I am sorry my poor English.

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Re: Not for Big Eye, Small Mouths
[info]lilrivkah
2004-12-31 11:28 pm UTC (link)
What American comics do you typically read? I have difficulty following a lot of the superhero-style comics, one because the art feels repetitive, the panels are generally all the same size and the pacing too fast, and the dialog is placed in bubbles much too tiny for easy reading. However, there are other American comics from the non superhero genre, too. I'd love to know which ones you read. :)

As for Japanese comics . . . I find them easier to read because the pacing is generally slower, as though it's happening in real-time rather than at a rushed pace. I've noticed that many Western artists that mimic the visual style of manga often forget that paneling, layout, and pacing are another part of the style. Many of the Western manga style artists I've seen tend to opt for a much faster pacing, cluttered panels, and overuse of dialogue (which tends to get in the way of the flow of the story). Japanese comics tend to contain 70% less dialogue than traditional American comics. So it may be not the art, but rather the 'little things' that are making many of these comics difficult to read.

In a couple of weeks, I will be putting up a post on what I percieve to be the elements of manga. I'd be happy for you to read it and lend your feedback.

A question for you: How do you feel American comics would be recieved in Japan? The manga (or 'graphic novel') I'm working on, 'Steady Beat,' contains many of the visual elements of manga, but the culture is set entirely in America. Do you believe Japanese people would reject a comic because of the nationality of the artist or embrace it? I strive for a quality in art that is equal to (and will hopefully someday rival) most of the artists currently residing in Japan. I have a profound respect for the incredible quality, detail, and finesse I see from many Japanese manga artists. To me, most American comics feel rushed, whereas I can look at higher-quality manga (because I know that bad ones exist, too) and see the concentration that goes into all the little things that other artists overlook. Sometimes I think it's a cultural thing that Western artists tend to overlook the details, when it's the details that move a piece from being merely 'good' to 'truly great.'

Thank you for your feedback, and I look forward to your insight! I've friended you so you may read some of the more sensitive content on my journal, such as how the book is progressing and some of the questions directed at other artists and writers in the field. I hope it proves useful.

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Thanks a lot rivkah
[info]smallboxman
2005-01-01 06:11 am UTC (link)
Thank you for a kind response.
And I'm honorably answer your questions.

> What American comics do you typically read?
Me? Anything. Anything is read as much as possible. Honestly speaking, probably I'm one of ordinary fanboy types. I think 'Gotham Central' & 'Invincible' is great comic book, and I hate 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' or 'Avengers disassembe'...It's quite typical:) But, I love other type of comics too. Maybe, I'm most royal reader of James Kochalka in Japan. I feel great impression from Andi Watson's works, reading Tony Millionaire's strip always fun. So I'm a fanboy (Even if it's not true believer:) and comix reader type too. OK?

> As for Japanese comics . . . I find them easier to read
Hmm...It's interesting. I think your sense of difficulty to western comics is quite similar many Japanese readers feel western comics.
>Japanese comics tend to contain 70% less dialogue than traditional American comics.
I think it's clear & right point. Probably I think that is a thing with the large influence of the division-of-work system of writer/artist. Recently I'm talking with Japanese Manga Critiques, Fusanosuke Natsume and Yukari Fujimoto, I said them I feel American Comics more Movie-esq media than Manga. Each Panel is screen, view point is changes finely, and monologue is always background. Japanese Manga is more character driven. But I like to think, this is not good or bad point, it's only 'difference'. Is the problem used a specific way effectively or not? For example, when I've first read Farel Dalrymple's work, I'm shocked. It's totally different from Manga, but quite good! And several Japan's top talented artist respecting American artists like you respect them. 'Rurouni Kenshin' artist Kazuhiro Watsuki is big fan of Jim Lee and his X-Men, and realy many many artist admire Mike Mignola's work. So I like to think we're currently studyng each other's good, because we are different.

> How do you feel American comics would be recieved in Japan?
...er, It's a difficult question. I say Japanese artist quite respective Americans, but unfortunately japan's ordinary readers know about American Comics almost nothing. Currently in Japan, Term 'American Comics' means only 'super hero comics', and that type of market quite narrow. And most important point, We have too many domestic Manga. We have already impossible to read all. Ordinary Japanese Manga Fans simply don't know your type of artist existing America. They are too busy reading Japanese thing. And Japanese publishing system is too exclusively. You wonder why Chinese or Korean artist not to got job in Japan, they always go U.S. This question's answer is simple. No job of foreign comic artist in Japan. Although this is said exaggeratedly, of course, But honestly in the situation of present Japan, unfortunately I must say your type of work is difficult to access readers. Seeing your work, you absorbed splendidly technique of Japanese Manga. I see your work is great, but you have Manga like quality, it's means competing Japanese artists in their home-ground, and handicap of language is undertaken. I think if Japanese Manga Fan look at your TPB, they must to say 'Year! It's English translation material. You know this title?':) You know, it's more difficult than 'Year! It's Spider-man' type reaction:[ But, I have hope you and your friends accept in Japan near future. Recently Japanese publishers start to publish Korean comics. I believe other talented foreigners like you got same chances not so far.
...er It's my answer(or something), it's maybe too long & too pessimistic, but it answered sincerely. I'm a only Japanese man, writing articles for Magazines. If I've friended you, that's Great! And if I have you allow, I want to translate this blog entry, and introducing this conversation to Japanese readers at my blog. Do you think this idea?

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Re: Thanks a lot rivkah
[info]lilrivkah
2005-01-01 11:08 am UTC (link)
I would be honored if you translated and posted this in your blog! :) (and I'll have to check out some of those titles you've mentioned) The insight you've offered on the industry in Japan is invaluable as I have a personal goal to break into the industry over there, even if it takes years. I personally believe that the flow between cultures in comics/manga can only be healthy and beneficial to the industry.

Ever since translated manga was introduced in the US, it has restored faith in the already existing market and created new ways of approaching comics for American artists/creators. I believe many American artists felt limited in the type of material they could produce because their fan base was also very limited. Before now, comics were seen as either 'kids stuff' or only picked up by hardcore fans and gamers. With the introduction of new material from Japan, it has widened the readership base of comics, even spanning gender. Before 2000, you'd fall over backwards if you saw a girl reading comics! Now girls are the major purchasers! :)

With competition, artists are willing to take more risks and dabble with different styles, genres, and ideas. Despite the plethora of artists and competition in Japan, I feel sometimes that there is a lack of originality in character approach and storyline. A lot of the manga that we see here, in the US, feels very similar to titles I've already seen. A breath of foreign culture could actually benefit the already existing market in Japan. However, whomever tries to publish over there had BETTER be on par with the best of their competition. Mediocre (or even 'good') simply won't make it, and publishing anything below the cut line could be disastrous on the attempts of future foreign artists if it sets a standard for something that is below quality.

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Re: Thanks a lot rivkah
[info]smallboxman
2005-01-01 11:03 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for pleasantly permitting.
So, I'll writing about you and translating this "Big Eyes, Small Mouths. It's a style, baby." entry ...er maybe, next week my Japanese blog.
Thanks Again!

...er, and it's a OMAKE(means sweepstakes) topic :)
Do you know Takeshi Miyazawa? If you don't, so checking this site BFX2. He's Canadian born Japanese, and comic artist. He's working for Marvel Comics, He's working with American writers. But his comics gave me a strong impression of Japanese Manga alike. I feel his comics reading so easily. I think his work has many useful suggestions, when analyzing difference of American Comics and Japanese Manga. And I think you (maybe) interesting him.

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Re: Thanks a lot rivkah
[info]lilrivkah
2005-01-01 11:32 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the link to Takeshi's art! I'm amazed I've never seen his work before as I find it quite stunning. He has a wonderful grasp of motion and cinematic angles. The influence of both American and Japanese styles is apparent, but he's blended it in such a way that makes it appealing. Plus, his style is still very distinct with a voice of its own.

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